23 | Lisa Aziz-Zadeh on Embodied Cognition, Mirror Neurons, and Empathy
Episode metadata
- Episode title:: 23 Lisa Aziz-Zadeh on Embodied Cognition, Mirror Neurons, and Empathy
- Show:: Sean Carroll’s Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas
- Owner / Host:: Sean Carroll
- Episode link:: open in Snipd
- Episode publish date:: 2018-11-19
Show notes
> Brains are important things; they're where thinking happens. Or are they? The theory of "embodied cognition" posits that it's better to think of thinking as something that takes place in the body as a whole, not just in the cells of the brain. In some sense this is trivially true; our brains interact with the rest of our bodies, taking in signals and giving back instructions. But it seems bold to situate important elements of cognition itself in the actual non-brain parts of the body. Lisa Aziz-Zadeh is a psychologist and neuroscientist who uses imaging technologies to study how different parts of the brain and body are involved in different cognitive tasks. We talk a lot about mirror neurons, those brain cells that light up both when we perform an action ourselves and when we see someone else performing the action. Understanding how these cells work could be key to a better view of empathy and interpersonal interactions. Lisa Aziz-Zadeh is an Associate Professor in the Brain and Creativity Institute and the Department of Occupational Science at the University of Southern California. She received her Ph.D. in psychology from UCLA, and has also done research at the University of Parma and the University of California, Berkeley. Home page USC profile Lab home page Google Scholar Talk on Brain and Body>
> See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Episode AI notes
- Embodied cognition theory suggests thinking occurs in the entire body, not just the brain.
- Mirror neurons in the brain aid in understanding others’ experiences through simulations of their actions.
Snips
[01:58] Embodied Cognition and the Whole Body
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (01:14 - 01:56)
✨ Summary
The concept of embodied cognition in neuroscience suggests that thinking is not limited to the brain but involves the entire body. This perspective views the body, including nerves, cells, and organs, as integral to the cognitive process. Additionally, embedded cognition takes it a step further by considering the external environment, such as writing on a notepad, as part of the cognitive apparatus. In essence, cognition encompasses the whole body and even extends to tools or objects in the external world that are involved in the thinking process.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 2
If the brain is where thinking happens what about the rest of the body? There are nerves in the rest of the body. In fact there are cells and organs and so forth that clearly influence what's going on in the brain. Might it not be more appropriate to think of the whole body as doing cognition in some sense? That's the thesis of a movement in neuroscience called embodied cognition. The idea that where we are thinking includes our whole bodies, not just the little brain inside our skull. There's even something called embedded cognition which if I understand it correctly goes and says actually it's the whole world where we start doing our thinking. When you're writing on a notepad, that notepad should be counted as part of your cognitive apparatus just like your brain.
[06:04] The Body’s Connection to the Brain
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (05:28 - 06:03)
✨ Summary
Neuroscience reveals that the body is interconnected with the brain through neurons, involving various parts like the gut, sensory organs, and eyes. The close interaction between the body and brain is profound, making it challenging to differentiate between the processing functions of the brain and body.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 1
So the more we learn about neuroscience, the more we learn that the body is part of the brain, you know, so all the neurons are interacting with the body all the time. And so from your gut to the senses on your fingers to hearing and even the eye is probably the most relevant because it's so attached to the brain, actually. But all of this interacts with the brain so largely that it's really impossible to separate processing in the brain from processing in the body.
[09:58] Understanding Embodied Cognition
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (09:23 - 10:25)
✨ Summary
Embodied cognition suggests that our thinking is closely connected to our body systems. It indicates that feelings like anxiety or nervousness are results of activities in our internal organs that the brain processes, rather than just signals from neurons in the brain. The sympathetic and parasympathetic systems show the strong interaction between the body and brain, where the brain constantly receives information from the body. For example, feeling anxious with butterflies in the stomach is due to the sympathetic nervous system priming the internal organs, which is then interpreted by the brain as nervousness.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 1
Embodied cognition is the idea that the way that we think is inherently rooted in our body systems. So, you know, if you are anxious or nervous, that's actually activity from your internal organs that your brain is processing.
Speaker 2
Okay. I'm sorry. So it's literally because of your organs doing something that you were feeling anxious. Right. It's not just because a certain neuron in your brain sent a little signal to it nearby your own.
Speaker 1
No. So we know from the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems that you have this large interaction with the body. And the brain is constantly picking up information from the body. And so let's just talk about being nervous. So if you have, feel like you've butterflies in your stomach and you're anxious, that's actually because your internal organs are being primed by your sympathetic nervous system. And then that information is going to the brain and it's being interpreted as being nervous.
[17:15] The Role of Top Down Processing in Brain Function
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (16:09 - 17:37)
✨ Summary
The brain utilizes both bottom-up and top-down processing in information processing. Bottom-up processing starts from sensory input and goes up to the brain, while top-down processing involves predictions made by the brain that influence processing. In robotics, it was found that relying solely on bottom-up processing was slow, leading to the development of forward modeling which improved speed by incorporating predictive models. Similarly, research suggests that the brain relies more on top-down processing than previously thought, with estimates indicating that up to 90% of information processed is driven by top-down predictions.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 1
So the idea is that, you know, so there's two types of processing. There's what we call bottom up. So it goes from your sensory systems, your eyes, your nose, your mouth, your somatosensory to the brain. And then there's top down. So that's things that we predict will happen that we start to already process as if they're happening, right? So it's driven by the brain and goes back down to the primary areas. Okay. And so it used to be that maybe, you know, this comes actually from robotics. So what we found in robotics was that if everything was bottom up, it would be too slow. Okay. Okay. So the robot would be way too slow to do anything. And so we started to do what we called forward modeling for robots. And so in there you start to have some kind of predictive model. And the bottom up model also sees if it can match it. And then you do some more robots processing that way and it increases speed. Okay. And so we realized the brain probably also works like that. But people pretty much thought it was about 50-50 bottom up and top down. And now more and more research is coming out saying that the percentages are much more toward the top down than the bottom up. And so we process things with this kind of prediction of what we expect to see. People are giving numbers like 90%.
[25:25] Understanding Mirror Neurons and Theory of Mind
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (24:29 - 25:25)
✨ Summary
Mirror neurons fire in our brain when we observe someone else performing an action, leading to theories that suggest they are involved in processing others’ actions and simulating their experiences to understand their intentions. By simulating the actions of others, our brain helps us in forming a theory of their mind, allowing us to empathize and comprehend their experiences.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 2
Why do these mirror neurons do this? So fine. I see, you know, I pick up a cup of some neurons fire. I see you pick up a cup, the same neurons fire in my brain. What's up with that? Okay.
Speaker 1
So then this is where the theory comes in. Right. Yes. Okay. So there's a bunch of different theories. So one very basic one is that it's involved in processing other people's actions. That's the most simple one. Right. And then there's theories of simulation that the way I understand you, the way I understand what you're doing, the way I understand when you reach for a cup, that means that you're probably Thirsty is by simulating. I know that when I reach for a cup, that's because I'm thirsty. And so if my motor regions are simulating unconsciously what you're doing at every moment, then I have an understanding of your experience.
Speaker 2
So it helps me have a theory of your mind if I can sort of simulate it.
[30:35] Empathy, Sympathy, and Compassion
🎧 Play snip - 2min️ (28:37 - 30:48)
✨ Summary
Individuals with autism show lower activity in specific brain regions related to empathic processing, impacting their social interactions. Empathy is multi-faceted, with psychologists dividing it into three components: sympathy involves understanding others’ thoughts and feelings in an abstract way, empathy entails sharing someone’s feelings, and compassion leads to proactive efforts to assist those in need.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 1
So you know we find that so I also study individuals with autism. Okay. And so we actually show that they have less activity in these regions. And some of some people with autism also have lower empathic processing and difficulty with social processing in general is the key misfunction in autism. You also find this you know there's so empathy is complicated there's different kinds of empathy. So psychologists generally divide empathy into three components. Okay. So there's sympathy which is kind of mentalizing is what we would call it where you're thinking about someone's actions and intentions and feelings but in a very abstract way. Right. Okay.
Speaker 2
Okay. So I'm not like identifying with you as a person but I'm sort of getting this idea of what you're thinking.
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean the best example I can give of this is if you're in a relationship and your partner is really upset with you and you're having a really hard time getting it.
Speaker 2
Right. That's never happened to me but sure.
Speaker 1
But they explain it more and more and you're kind of like in this abstract realm you're like okay I kind of understand why you're upset with me intellectually. Until actually I would never respond that way myself. Right.
Speaker 2
But I'm asking. That's called sympathy. Right. That sounds like a weird word sympathy.
Speaker 1
Okay. So it's a very cognitive form of empathy and very abstract. Okay. Okay. Then we have empathy which is sharing someone's feelings. So here I feel exactly what you feel. So if you're in pain I actually feel that pain myself.
Speaker 2
Literally feel it.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Literally feel it. Okay. And then there's compassion and compassion is proactive behavior where you actually want to do something to help the person. So not only do you feel but do you feel compassion for them and you want to do something to help them.
[48:04] Uploading Our Brains into The Matrix and Simulated Reality
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (47:12 - 47:59)
✨ Summary
Uploading our brains into the matrix poses challenges as it removes the body and the experiences that come with it, leading to a different consciousness and lack of motivation. Copying neurons and connections into a computer won’t replicate a person exactly due to unique inputs and experiences. Hence, such a copy won’t truly represent immortality as it differs significantly from the original individual.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 2
I think that there are books about uploading our brains into the matrix and just letting us live in the simulated reality. So that will be basically your point is just that's even harder than you think because you don't have a body once you're up there. Exactly. And everything that goes with it. Right. And I've long thought that it just wouldn't be even if you could copy piece by piece all of your neurons and all their connections into the computer, it wouldn't be a copy of you exactly Because of these things because your inputs are different. And it's just it's going to be I mean maybe it'll be conscious, maybe it'll be intelligent, but it won't have the motivation. It'll be different. It'll be different. It won't be you. Yeah. And yeah, somehow it doesn't count as immortality if you upload our brain in that way. No, unfortunately.
[56:40] Exposure to Differences and Embodiment
🎧 Play snip - 1min️ (55:42 - 56:40)
✨ Summary
Exposure to people who are different from us helps in normalizing and embodying them similarly. Initially, visual processing is used to understand unfamiliar individuals, but with more exposure, embodied processing becomes significant. The aim is to make the embodied processing similar to that of watching other people by increasing familiarity with them.
📚 Transcript
Click to expand
Speaker 1
And so the idea is that with more exposure to people who are different from us, then we start to see them very similarly. We normalize them in some sense. Exactly. And we embody them very similarly.
Speaker 2
But it's a weird thing because we're, I mean, is it a, I don't know, I don't want to say worry, but is it that we're not treating them as they are? We're fitting them into a box meant for us. And they're really kind of different.
Speaker 1
Yeah. So in the beginning, what we see when they're not familiar with a person is a lot of activity in visual areas. Okay. So they're using visual processing to understand this person, but not this kind of more embodied processing. And so the idea is, if we think that the embodied processing is important, right, then we would want to have that be similar to watching other people. Right. And so the more familiar we get them with a person, then the more of that they have.